00:00:11:04 - 00:00:35:19

Kat Chudy
Hello and welcome to DIY Access. I'm your host Kat Chudy and today we're going to be talking to a very good friend of mine, Jenny Abeyta. We went to school together at NMSU and we shared the experience of quitting a program and our conversation today is going to center around quitting as a form of access. So we're going to go ahead and start with Jenny introducing herself. Go ahead.

00:00:36:02 - 00:00:47:21
Jenny Abeyta
Hi. So I'm Jenny Abeyta and I am the resident property designer at Theatreworks.

00:00:48:02 - 00:01:00:15
Kat Chudy
And how did you get into that job position? I know that that happened after you left the program. So let's start by talking about that job and how you've been doing since leaving.

00:01:02:07 - 00:01:25:05
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah. So that job, I. I used to intern there back when I was in high school, and I had kind of been in and out of it a little bit. And then after quitting the program, I just kind of went back and went back to the technical director and said, Hey, I've got nothing else going on right now.

00:01:26:01 - 00:01:34:14
Jenny Abeyta
So is there work here? And jeez I think that it's been four years.

00:01:35:02 - 00:01:53:07
Kat Chudy
Let's let's start with like talking about school a little bit. So we were both in the same program at New Mexico State University. I don't really remember. How long were you in the program before I showed up? Because I got there August 2017. How long were you..?

00:01:53:07 - 00:01:56:14
Jenny Abeyta
I was there one semester before you got in.

00:01:56:21 - 00:02:16:08
Kat Chudy
OK And then I guess I wanted to ask. I don't think we ever talked about it. Did you have like a whole bunch of hard time in the program before we even met or did the really rocky stuff start with some of the incidents that we saw?

00:02:17:14 - 00:02:47:04
Jenny Abeyta
Oh, I started seeing like glimmers of what both of us would be seeing the semester after. I definitely think it got worse after that, but I don't think it was like it had anything to do with the new people that were coming in. I think it was just I think there was stuff that was happening in the first semester that was like the the red flags that we were going to see tenfold the next semester.

00:02:48:00 - 00:03:14:13
Kat Chudy
And then we'll we'll get around to that because that's kind of predicting one of my later questions, which is like, how do you know when things are going wrong? Do you do you remember like a singular moment early on, looking back that you could say, okay, maybe that was like the first sign that this is not a good place to be.

00:03:16:15 - 00:03:45:14
Jenny Abeyta
I remember instances. I don't remember the first one. The things that really stand out to me were like the first review session with our group. So as you know, we had an hour or class where all the grads get together, everyone has studio visits, and it was kind of in that first studio visit that you're learning, okay, this is how these work, this is what these are going to feel like in the future. And...

00:03:46:22 - 00:03:50:05
Kat Chudy
...talking about the reviews right at the end of the semester?

00:03:51:02 - 00:04:12:09
Jenny Abeyta
Talking studio visits and and and reviews both of those things, because the studio visits were one thing and it was maybe less daunting than the reviews. Obviously, the review is like we have every faculty member there, we have every grad student there and it feels like an execution.

00:04:14:16 - 00:04:31:16
Kat Chudy
I still talk about this with some of my peers in the program I'm in now, and half the time I think they don't believe me because of how horrific it just sounds coming out of my mouth when I'm describing like the process that we went through.

00:04:31:19 - 00:04:53:12
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah, no, it definitely has something to do with the environment. And I've talked about this a lot when I'm just talking about classes. And if you're teaching a class, you have control over that environment and whether that's a place where people feel safe to open their mouth and where they feel safe to get something wrong when they open their mouth.

00:04:54:11 - 00:05:14:08
Jenny Abeyta
And there are some classes where you don't open your mouth and there's some classes where you do, but it's kind of up to the people who are in charge of that situation to create that environment. And I could feel right away in our program this was not an environment where it is safe to fail.

00:05:15:09 - 00:05:23:12
Kat Chudy
Yeah, yeah. Or make a mistake or say something wrong. I was actually....

00:05:23:20 - 00:05:35:12
Jenny Abeyta
...or TRY new things or or try something that maybe it's everyone's telling you, Hey, that's been done before and you're like, Cool, but I haven't done it, so I would like to try.

00:05:37:13 - 00:05:53:01
Kat Chudy
Or, I mean, even just technical stuff. Like I remember being told over and over and over again whenever I had ideas about using electronics or doing anything with coding, that that was a literal impossibility. And there was no way I was going to acquire the skills necessary.

00:05:53:07 - 00:06:09:03
Jenny Abeyta
Same, same thing. I definitely heard when I was when I was getting into certain things that it's like you shouldn't you don't have time. You've got to be making it, making and making, and you don't have time to pick up new skills. Where are you going to learn coding?

00:06:10:04 - 00:06:11:21
Kat Chudy
I did it in a semester!

00:06:12:21 - 00:06:16:11
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah, it would have taken me a semester, man.

00:06:16:11 - 00:06:48:17
Kat Chudy
Still really rocky and have a lot to learn. But like having somebody to lead you through, at least part of it gives you the confidence you need to go, Okay, maybe I actually can do this. And this might be an important part of my practice or not, but it's there's something there and like getting to explore it, like half of the things that I make don't make it out as finished products of my studio anymore, but it's actually a far more productive thing than the kind of making we were doing before.

00:06:49:10 - 00:06:56:22
Kat Chudy
It's like all these failures lead me to far better finished artwork than if I was just making a whole bunch of finished stuff.

00:06:58:00 - 00:07:32:21
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah, I think they they talked a lot about how much you should be experimenting, but the sheer amount that they expected by the end, you didn't have time for experimenting, you didn't have time for getting something wrong and usually our process in terms of studio visits ended up tearing away so much of that work that was in It's like little tiny stages where it hadn't grown into the full idea yet, but it would get torn down while it was still a little seed.

00:07:33:20 - 00:07:38:09
Jenny Abeyta
And by the end you didn't have as much work as you could have.

00:07:39:18 - 00:08:03:09
Kat Chudy
Yeah, that's true. I wanted to ask you about, like, we'll probably go back and forth here and there as we're talking, but would you do you think that you would have left sooner? And was anything like keeping you from making that leap of quitting the program? And can you talk about what some of those things might have been?

00:08:04:18 - 00:08:33:19
Jenny Abeyta
I think the main thing that's keeping you from leaving, as much as you're looking around and saying, this isn't right, this isn't right, this isn't right, is that Well, but other people are here and other people are going through this program and they're you know, there's there's teachers, there's there's other grad students and they all see this. So it must just be the way that I'm interpreting it.

00:08:33:22 - 00:08:58:05
Jenny Abeyta
There's nothing wrong or something wrong and just kind of that being in the water of it and getting to the point where you're the boiled frog, you just yeah, you, you just you're like, Oh, okay, okay. You're doing okay. You saw that? Okay. You didn't do okay. I get that this is okay and it's not and it's not.

00:08:58:05 - 00:09:07:13
Jenny Abeyta
And it took it took that semester that we had met for me to kind of it was like the final straw.

00:09:08:10 - 00:09:16:20
Kat Chudy
What do you, what do you think that final thing was that like, pushed you to say, okay, screw this, I can't do this anymore?

00:09:16:20 - 00:10:07:04
Jenny Abeyta
I'm sorry. I, I don't know if there was like it was it was it was so many things because as I've mentioned before and, you know, I came into the program with my bachelor's in psychology, not in art. And it was it was interesting because having that perspective where I had spent the first four years of my my college life focusing on mental health and then wanting to come into an art program where I could talk about mental health through some kind of where I wanted my art to speak of it.

00:10:07:04 - 00:10:55:06
Jenny Abeyta
Then I saw things. I saw how unhealthy everything there was. And I'm looking around like I read a lot of articles about this, and this feels way more like being in some kind of crazy like Zimbardo experiment than it really feels like being part of a supportive program. And without naming names, like, I remember having classes and with our peers and just these tearful breakdowns of people who are and we were always crying together like weird, like people.

00:10:55:11 - 00:11:18:12
Jenny Abeyta
People shouldn't be in each other's studios crying this much. But that's what we did, is you'd go and you'd, you know, being an empath and you walk in and you feel that pain and you're like, this person doesn't feel like they can open their mouth. This person doesn't feel like they can share their their experience through their art because of how badly it's torn apart.

00:11:19:06 - 00:11:49:14
Jenny Abeyta
This person doesn't feel like they can make any mistake. Well, and I was going to say is beyond that to us. It wasn't just it wasn't just this whole the word is safety is it wasn't just that they didn't feel safe emotionally there. They weren't safe there physically. And that was the biggest indication to me that it was time to go.

00:11:49:22 - 00:12:17:01
Jenny Abeyta
It's one thing kind of dealing with some shitty people who are being shitty to you and being like, okay, I can't. But but it got to the point where you have a program that's saying if you don't have a mental breakdown, you're doing it wrong. Make your things crazier. Hey, if you're talking about mental illness, I need to look at your work and know that you are mentally ill.

00:12:18:14 - 00:13:06:06
Jenny Abeyta
And that led to some of the stuff and not naming names. Again, we see people vomiting on canvas as we see people snorting substances for videos. We see rooms in our spaces being trashed and trashed either by the means of trying to create, hurt or trashed just because of sheer frustration when things don't go right. Yeah. And you see people who are being told that they need to drink or they need to be on drugs, or they need to be under some kind of influence in order to create the best thing.

00:13:06:06 - 00:13:36:21
Jenny Abeyta
And I monitored the shop, I monitored the welders, and I was like, this This is something I'm hearing from teachers too. This is something I'm it's not just grad students who are saying these things to each other. This is kind of coming down from teachers, or at least if it's not just teachers saying, yes, do it, they're letting it happen.

00:13:36:21 - 00:13:42:12
Jenny Abeyta
And they're looking at the art and they're looking at it and they don't see a problem.

00:13:43:10 - 00:13:44:13
Kat Chudy
Or they're praising it.

00:13:45:07 - 00:14:11:09
Jenny Abeyta
Or praising like this artwork that somebody is saying that they've made with shaking hands or is only slap together with the briefest thread of sanity still intact. And yay, congratulations. That looks great. Like, let's not address the fact that these students are dying.

00:14:11:23 - 00:14:35:12
Kat Chudy
Yeah. And it's still just - it blows my mind. I know the the program we were in was especially toxic, but I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot leading up to this interview with you. And when I think back, even on my undergrad at the University of Texas at El Paso, like there were aspects of that that were, you know, strikingly similar to what we're talking about.

00:14:35:12 - 00:14:43:11
Kat Chudy
I think I've told you about how we used to cry in the music practice rooms because they were soundproof, like after critique.

00:14:43:17 - 00:14:43:23
Jenny Abeyta
Mm-hm.

00:14:44:06 - 00:15:08:02
Kat Chudy
And that's that was part of the culture of that undergrad program. And what I do to kind of like center myself nowadays whenever I'm having trouble is reminding myself that, you know, how privileged I am to be able to go to school, you know, have most of the costs of that taken care of and just the idea of going to school for art also is so privileged.

00:15:08:02 - 00:15:22:18
Kat Chudy
And to think about that attached to any kind of systemic trauma is is just insane to me. It shouldn't be that hard. No school should be that hard.

00:15:22:18 - 00:16:01:11
Jenny Abeyta
And I feel like that that was actually something that you hear a lot to while you're in the program is like, Well, I had it hard, so you should. It's that cycle. It's that this is generational. This is this is a pattern of abuse because I feel like when people talk about, oh, you're in an art program, you make you know, you make art that you know, you're not you're not writing some kind of incredible hundred page dissertation and it's not using that same kind of part of the brain.

00:16:01:19 - 00:16:24:15
Jenny Abeyta
So I feel like how the art programs make up for it or tries tries to make up for this lack of, you know, well academic, you know, hard core is by making it so hard in other ways. And I think how they've achieved that is that's not the way (No) it's not the way it should be hard.

00:16:25:04 - 00:16:56:05
Kat Chudy
It should be like intellectually challenging and rigorous, but you shouldn't be like checking yourself into the psych ward every semester because you're having a hard time handling everything. It's too much. I was also thinking about I wanted to ask you, you've had this experience, but I was thinking back to every job I've ever had since I was 16, and I can very clearly remember every position I ever quit.

00:16:56:21 - 00:17:20:23
Kat Chudy
I was told by a supervisor, whoever was in charge of me, that I would never get another job because they weren't going to give me letters of recommendation. And this is the best it was ever going to be. And I've noticed that that's the exact same pattern that was repeated at that program we were in. And I just feel like it's this part of the larger work culture of this country.

00:17:21:11 - 00:17:24:03
Kat Chudy
And I don't know if that's held true for you or not.

00:17:25:20 - 00:18:04:08
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah, I know there's there there were definitely a lot of things kind of in place that were trying to keep you from going, even kind of this whole mentality of like, well, if you're if you're quitting, it's because you're not smart enough, thick skinned enough. You're not. There's something about YOU. And it's it's a part of the culture we have a victim blaming where a bully can get away with being a bully by making the victim feel like the failure was on them.

00:18:05:00 - 00:18:34:17
Jenny Abeyta
And then they can just keep on being bullies. Because you've made a culture where, well, you're getting abused because of X and Y, or you feel like you're being abused because of X and Y and you just need tougher skin. You know, you just need to grow a spine. You just need to stand up for yourself. And that makes it so much harder to quit.

00:18:35:18 - 00:19:03:22
Kat Chudy
Well, especially in like, I mean, this is true for a job or in a school program. Even for somebody like me that's an older student, like that power differential between the teacher who is in charge of your grade and basically has control of your entire future, you know, has power over you and you are at some level aware of that, intimidated by that.

00:19:04:06 - 00:19:14:00
Kat Chudy
And I think the people that are in power positions need to be more aware of that power differential and how it affects the people under them. You know?

00:19:14:01 - 00:19:36:17
Jenny Abeyta
We've we've definitely talked about that a lot. And I can't remember specific examples and not naming names, but it's like if you're if you're saying that a student should do this and you you know, if you point a finger that teacher, they they get the chance to say, well, I didn't I didn't tell them to do that. I'm sorry.

00:19:37:02 - 00:19:45:24
Jenny Abeyta
You're in a point of of power. That wasn't a suggestion. It's just not.

00:19:46:09 - 00:20:11:13
Kat Chudy
I had a moment in the classroom teaching this semester where I pulled back immediately. I heard the words come out of my mouth and it was just like a suggestion for how to draw something. But I said, You should do this. And the minute I heard it come out of my mouth, I was like, Oh God, that sounds so like aggressive and commanding.

00:20:11:13 - 00:20:28:01
Kat Chudy
And I immediately dialed it back and said, I don't mean should. I mean this is something you could do with your drawing. And I think that's important is to be aware of how just like one word choice can change the character of an entire sentence.

00:20:28:18 - 00:21:00:04
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah, and I remember having that kind of problem even when we started first trying to report some of the issues that we were seeing. And there was a teacher at one of our reviews who is committing to me who took the same training to be able to teach that she did what is a clear FERPA violation and is calling out students.

00:21:00:09 - 00:21:35:07
Jenny Abeyta
You are called out on this for for absences and the thing is, I remember submitting basically a complaint into the department that would handle those things about that, saying, hey, I think there was a very serious FERPA violation because these students were forced to disclose where they had been for for this absence because she was pissed that they had missed class one class, by the way.

00:21:35:07 - 00:21:57:10
Jenny Abeyta
But just (I remember!) this missed class. And I got a response because a university has to cover its own ass that was like, oh, well, based on this and this, those students weren't required to disclose that information.

00:21:57:16 - 00:22:06:07
Kat Chudy
Yeah, but we sure felt like we had to, you know, still in front of like 30 something odd people and, you know...

00:22:06:07 - 00:22:13:15
Jenny Abeyta
For sure! Because you had every single person's eyes in the department on you. What else are you going to do?

00:22:13:21 - 00:22:14:06
Kat Chudy
Yeah.

00:22:15:04 - 00:22:15:13
Kat Chudy
Yeah.

00:22:16:00 - 00:22:38:16
Kat Chudy
It's it's those horror moments where, like, you know, when you're past it, you look back and you're like, Oh, I should've just gotten up and walked away or I should have done this. And (yeah) you’re frozen in that moment. And I think, (oh yeah) that's another thing that people in power simply don't seem to understand, is that you, first of all, you need time to think about what just happened.

00:22:39:03 - 00:23:03:18
Kat Chudy
You know, you can’t formulate a response on the spot that's going to be the best response and you can't wait. They just expect you to be on all the time. Like, Oh, if you really thought that this was like a microaggression or whatever or a violation of your rights, then you should have been able to like, pop that off right then and there and tell me like, Oh, this is so and.

00:23:04:07 - 00:23:27:18
Jenny Abeyta
No.... And you remember of the times that we've had to engage with faculty members and things like this, it was like the next day after we'd slept on it, you know, And then and then we're in each other's studios like, was that is, is that has it been keeping you awake? It's been keeping me awake. Like...

00:23:27:22 - 00:23:29:01
Kat Chudy
Oh yeah the waiting! I forgot about the

00:23:29:01 - 00:23:49:04
Kat Chudy
Waiting until you said like that nerve wracking, anxiety provoking extension of the event. You know where for days you would just be sick thinking about what are the actual consequences of this going to be today? Tomorrow?

00:23:49:04 - 00:23:50:16
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.

00:23:51:00 - 00:24:19:06
Kat Chudy
So that brings me to the one the question we alluded to earlier, which is how, how does someone so we know when we knew it was time to quit. If we're talking about quitting, is this form of access like how do you know that it's time to leave a toxic situation. How do you know an environment is toxic versus you're just being a little lazy and people are just kind of being, you know, assholes like.

00:24:20:21 - 00:24:59:08
Jenny Abeyta
I know it is a hard one and it's it's really a trust your gut thing. And maybe that's a little bit harder for some people. It was definitely hard for me because I had never quit anything saying I can, I can tell you like coming in. It's like, Oh, look at this. This straight-A honor student went to the Honors College at ASU and did her thesis and did all these things that were terrifying at the time and pushed in and did everything.

00:24:59:16 - 00:25:20:11
Jenny Abeyta
And then all of a sudden I'm in a program that I'm still getting all A's. I'm still technically getting OK scores on reviews. I'm still. But but there's something really wrong.

00:25:20:11 - 00:25:45:00
Kat Chudy
You felt awful! (Jenny: You FEEL it.) Yeah. It's like I we had someone leave the program last semester here at this school that I met, and they came to ask me because I was the only person they knew that had left an MFA program and asked a whole bunch of questions about like, How do you know when it's time to leave? And I kind of fell back on the gut thing too.

00:25:45:23 - 00:25:53:16
Kat Chudy
And one of the things I told them was if you're walking in the building and you're nauseated.

00:25:54:04 - 00:25:55:12
Kat Chudy
Like if you.

00:25:55:12 - 00:26:06:01
Kat Chudy
Are so emotionally pulled out that your body is starting to rebel because you're not listening to your mind.

00:26:06:12 - 00:26:22:23
Jenny Abeyta
You really do feel it in your body. And it's that safety thing when you walk in and you don't feel safe and you don't feel like it's safe to speak, you don't feel like it's safe to show people things and you don't feel safe physically in a building, it's time to go.

00:26:23:04 - 00:26:43:15
Kat Chudy
I mean, it's nuts to think about it for me now, but I was having seizures. I was so I was so depressed and so stressed out and so overworked and so abused that like, my body was rebelling.

00:26:43:16 - 00:26:56:10
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah. Oh, I know. And I remember I still to this day, keep a series of notes in on my phone on the things that had happened that I had written down.

00:26:57:07 - 00:26:57:18
Jenny Abeyta
I have a.

00:26:57:18 - 00:27:21:20
Jenny Abeyta
Picture of myself f on one of the worst days because I remember turning my phone's camera around to see if there was something on my face and I look like shit. And I took a picture, man. I took a picture and I kept it because I refer to that when I need to remind myself, because it's so easy to leave and be like, Oh, I shouldn't that I shouldn't have, I shouldn't.

00:27:22:00 - 00:27:42:23
Jenny Abeyta
And you're beating yourself up and you need to look at that picture of you looking like shit. You need to look at your phone, at your notes, What's happened? You need to remember that day that you were like, I'm going to just walk into the parking lot and get hit by a car like, This is how I'm feeling today.

00:27:42:23 - 00:28:07:08
Kat Chudy
It's I still have to bug Josh all the time because, you know, I went through I've been doing therapy and I've realized that like some of what was going on was me. But the things that they were doing to me were still absolutely atrocious. And the only thing that could have improved was maybe my reaction to those things.

00:28:07:08 - 00:28:10:09
Kat Chudy
But I think I still I still would have left. I still.

00:28:10:14 - 00:28:46:02
Jenny Abeyta
Do. Absolutely. And I see the biggest difference between us being how much we fought and I feel like that's why you were there longer is because you fought and you would fight and maybe see a slight thing like a like a tiny little reward, like a little treat. And then then everything would hit shit again and go for like being in a hope.

00:28:46:02 - 00:28:54:14
Jenny Abeyta
We've talked about this to being in an abusive relationship where you're like, He said he was going to change. He said he'll change for me and.

00:28:56:12 - 00:28:57:12
Kat Chudy
He said it would never happen again!

00:28:57:12 - 00:29:28:05
Jenny Abeyta
But and and so, you know, you kept fighting it and I didn't. And I think part of that is we're different people. Like I, I can't fight. I'm so squishy, man. I like if somebody even if I even started trying to describe to somebody like, hey, you, you did this, I would be a mess. No one would hear me.

00:29:28:08 - 00:29:37:08
Jenny Abeyta
My words wouldn't even come out. So we left very differently as well.

00:29:37:08 - 00:29:38:16
Kat Chudy
I thought I could win! I mean that when

00:29:39:09 - 00:29:41:23
Jenny Abeyta
You when you think you're doing the right.

00:29:41:23 - 00:29:53:00
Kat Chudy
Thing, you know, and that you're like fighting the good fight, you have this delusion that, like, it's like the movie lies that they feed you your whole childhood

00:29:53:01 - 00:30:17:21
Jenny Abeyta
OH Yeah, it's so Hollywood. I just stand up to the bully and I tell them to their face. Then they're going to get haunted by enough ghosts that at some point they'll change. And you wish for it and you want it, but you're not going to change. Something is so venomous in that system. It's so part of the way that it was built.

00:30:18:08 - 00:30:31:22
Kat Chudy
And I think this is like this is the thing I really wanted to hit on with this conversation is like, it's not it's quitting is so not a part of our cultural vocabulary at all. Its...

00:30:31:22 - 00:30:33:02
Jenny Abeyta
NO

00:30:33:13 - 00:30:54:15
Kat Chudy
It's it's not okay. You know, nobody wants to see themselves as a quitter. And I think if you want to moralize the situation and you want to say, like everyone at this institution is bad, it's a bad institution, but that's not necessarily true. And this is part of what I talked about with the student that was asking me for advice.

00:30:54:15 - 00:31:31:08
Kat Chudy
Is it this this particular place and this particular time might not be the right place in time for you. And that's okay. And that's it doesn't have to be that you're like the hero in some epic moral fight against the bad institution. It could just be like, This is the wrong fit for me. And I think that needs to be normalized too like it's perfectly acceptable to go somewhere, start something like a job or program and realize like, holy crap, this is not what I thought it was.

00:31:31:20 - 00:31:41:05
Kat Chudy
And instead of like barreling through and finishing anyway, it should be okay for you to go. This isn't what I wanted. I'm going to go do what I wanted.

00:31:42:00 - 00:32:21:09
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah. And I think that, like you were saying, how it's something that's so set into our American culture of never quit. But that's the reason we end up hurting ourselves by staying with that abusive boyfriend. (Yeah) being in an abusive program, not giving up. Yeah. All these things that there's a reason that someone with more power is feeding you that kind of shtick.

00:32:22:07 - 00:32:26:00
Jenny Abeyta
It's because it benefits them and it doesn't benefit you.

00:32:26:23 - 00:32:38:22
Kat Chudy
Yup. I think that was that was a great way to round out the end of that. So how have you been doing since you left?

00:32:38:22 - 00:32:46:10
Jenny Abeyta
So much better Like like 100% like what's I don't know more than that.

00:32:46:10 - 00:32:49:03
Kat Chudy
300% !!!

00:32:49:03 - 00:32:51:15
Jenny Abeyta
300, 500.

00:32:52:05 - 00:33:01:22
Kat Chudy
It's really easy to say like, yes, I'm doing better. But like, what? What's better? I mean, obviously you left the toxic environment like, (yeah) there's a lot of emotional...

00:33:01:23 - 00:33:02:20
Jenny Abeyta
No, I know.

00:33:02:24 - 00:33:04:17
Kat Chudy
Cleanup that needs to happen.

00:33:05:01 - 00:33:31:09
Jenny Abeyta
There. There's a lot of stuff that's going to stay with me forever, you know, It's like, well, the damage is done, but, you know, just, you know, there's a scar. That's cool. Just keep that wear it and you just you just wear it and you keep going. But like, it, it really has been such a crazy difference getting back into the theater because I had been away from it for a little while.

00:33:31:24 - 00:33:56:01
Jenny Abeyta
And then when I came back and like, you guys have anything I need something to do and the director remembered me and trusted me with like two productions. Like here, here are a couple of shows we need. We need property design for. And then by the end of the first show, they were like, Here's the rest of the season.

00:33:56:17 - 00:34:34:11
Jenny Abeyta
(Oh!) and it was just amazing because like all of that, you know, like, I'm not working hard enough, I'm not doing enough. And all these little things that are going on in my head and everything on the outside world is like, Oh my God, how did you make that? Geez, everything is done already. What and how did you do this under budget and just this like I'm getting all this positive reinforcement that's just bouncing off of my head because I'm not accepting any of it.

00:34:34:11 - 00:34:57:24
Jenny Abeyta
I'm just like, I'm just moving through this space like, Oh gosh, it's me, or we have all the things I do. And it takes it took a long time for anything to penetrate. And I remember there was this one instance for it was maybe the second show I was working on when I got back that I made a snowglobe.

00:34:57:24 - 00:35:30:17
Jenny Abeyta
We were doing Elf, and so he needed his snow globe with the New York skyline in it and I couldn't find a nice one or a cheap one. And we're a community theater. There's no budget. And so I went to the Dollar store and got one of those just dollar store snow globes and a 3D printed the New York skyline and kind of tore apart some already made images and in Tinker Cad and kind of designed the little piece that I want painted it threw it in there.

00:35:30:17 - 00:36:03:00
Jenny Abeyta
I got my own snow and I brought it to the director for that show and our stage manager. And they were just like, oh, oh my God, this is amazing. And I'm like, What the fuck are you talking about? That's a dollarstore... And the the kid who's playing the elf, he comes up and sees it and he holds it in his hands and he's like, This makes it real for me.

00:36:03:00 - 00:36:35:12
Jenny Abeyta
And I was just like, about to cry, like I made something that made these people really happy. And that's kind of the superpower I have. And I didn't know that it was because nobody treated it that way. (Yup) And I've never left that environment because it's not just that like, Oh, they're they’re Yes, men. They tell me everything I like to hear.

00:36:35:23 - 00:37:08:01
Jenny Abeyta
Like, I, I get so challenged in so many other ways in this job every single show requires a different skill set like, Oh, well, in this one we need a bunch of cakes that look realistic, or in this one we need a crap ton of puppets that are made out of wireframes or whatever. And I was the sculptor who had just done everything and all of a sudden I'm in a place that needs that.

00:37:08:10 - 00:37:28:08
Jenny Abeyta
It's like you never know what you're going to get and what skills you're going to have to learn and pick up or do to make all these crazy objects and magic tricks and...

00:37:28:08 - 00:37:40:05
Kat Chudy
Just the way you're talking about your work is like so vastly different. And I think we had had a conversation about that before. We're like, I'm happy now making things. And I didn't realize.

00:37:41:02 - 00:37:41:19
Jenny Abeyta
How.

00:37:42:04 - 00:37:46:20
Kat Chudy
Completely miserable I was.

00:37:46:20 - 00:38:10:19
Jenny Abeyta
I, I, I hate doing this, but I want to do this. And it's like I remember, you know, who I'm talking, who somebody mentioned, like art being fun. And the response was, Who's having fun here?

00:38:10:19 - 00:38:25:00
Kat Chudy
I had I had one of those moments, too, where I was yelled at for saying that I had fun with the photo shoot. God forbid that we have fun making artwork.

00:38:25:00 - 00:38:48:15
Jenny Abeyta
The thing that we love to do enough to study it. Do people do that to scientists like they're just sitting? Are they sitting happily on their computer, like crunching their numbers from their experiment and somebody comes up like, Why are you having fun? You’re doing statistical analysis!

00:38:49:07 - 00:39:16:08
Kat Chudy
Oh, Man, no, it doesn't feel like work anymore. I think I, I commented to Josh about that where I think I spent like 8 hours beating one of the wearables I was making and my hands hurt and I was sore and I didn't care. I could have kept going because I was like, so happy because I'm essentially able to do what I want with my work now.

00:39:16:08 - 00:39:41:01
Kat Chudy
And there's a certain amount of trust I'm given that I wasn't given before, and it took me forever. Be able to appreciate that and run with it. Like I think you were talking about that a little bit. Like, you know, you're out of the toxic environment. You know you're in a safe place or a safer space and you're still like inside in your mind, like, cringe.

00:39:41:01 - 00:39:41:19
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah. And I.

00:39:42:04 - 00:40:06:00
Jenny Abeyta
I, I still get that, but it's not as bad anymore. But it's definitely one of those things I'm going to be carrying on is reminding myself that whatever that voice in my head is that's beating me up is not it's not like that. No, it's not the truth. And it's like a remnant of of something that's passed because it took a long time to enjoy making things again.

00:40:06:09 - 00:40:12:24
Jenny Abeyta
And I remember I was making things for the theater for a really long time before I ever started making stuff for myself again.

00:40:13:06 - 00:40:15:15
Kat Chudy
Oh, yeah, You were talking about that.

00:40:16:06 - 00:40:52:14
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah, it took a long time because I would feel like I would pick something up and I'd be like, Oh, I want to make these earrings. Those they're they're kitschy, they're cliches. Or it's just, you know, more stupid crap. And you just, you just hear all that stuff again and you almost feel guilty. Yeah, like I'm crocheting something, but it's so stupid because they're just like, this is this is an art this is an art.

00:40:52:15 - 00:41:01:23
Jenny Abeyta
Because you just hear that. And and it takes a long time to not feel guilty. Just making something for yourself again.

00:41:01:23 - 00:41:33:05
Kat Chudy
I'm figuring out as I'm getting older, part of dealing with systems like any institution, any system is going to inherently have some of these problems because you're taking human beings which are like extremely most multifaceted, complex things and forcing them into this like really rigid system, this manner of doing things that not everybody is going to fit inside that set of rules.

00:41:33:05 - 00:41:42:14
Kat Chudy
And I think that's that happens with that'll happen with even the best program is you're going to see people that kind of fall by the wayside because it is a system.

00:41:42:14 - 00:42:02:04
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah, and that's the weirdest thing is having an art program. (Yeah...) that is, is that that lives within that system. It's bound to be it's inherently filled with flaws. (Yup) Because it's structured in a way that doesn't it doesn't match the idea.

00:42:03:11 - 00:42:03:21
Kat Chudy
Yeah.

00:42:04:07 - 00:42:04:14
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah.

00:42:05:24 - 00:42:36:14
Kat Chudy
I think that has more to do with like there are very specific reasons, I think, for getting an MFA. I don't think that you need one to be like a freelance artist necessarily. You of course need it to teach maybe to get some positions in certain kinds of creative production. But I, I think I see a lot of people in these programs who have been fed the idea that they have to do this to become a real artist.

00:42:37:24 - 00:42:47:19
Kat Chudy
...and I don't know how helpful that is to those people specifically. Some people need it and thrive within the structure, but a lot of people don't.

00:42:48:24 - 00:43:07:11
Jenny Abeyta
No you don't you don't need any degree to be successful as an artist exhibiting in places. You just kind of need to know the way to apply for her programs, for grants, for shows and things like that. You don't need a degree to be an artist.

00:43:08:16 - 00:43:28:08
Kat Chudy
Very true. We're speaking blasphemy on the show right now, But no, that was amazing. Thank you for all of your dredging up some of that trauma, even in vague terms.

00:43:28:08 - 00:43:31:13
Jenny Abeyta
Even in I will not be naming these people terms?

00:43:31:14 - 00:44:01:14
Kat Chudy
And that wasn't the point of today either, was not to try and attack the reputation of anyone, but to talk about this idea of quitting. What do you think could be done to kind of start dismantling this like larger cultural resistance to quitting? Because we're seeing it right now with what are they calling it, the quiet quitting that's happening all across the country. I think people...

00:44:02:13 - 00:44:28:12
Jenny Abeyta
leaving a lot of jobs and things like that for sure. (Yeah so...) I think that's that's been moving things in a good direction because the thing about it is that there's always going to be that overarching power in place that is saying, No, you can't quit on me, you'll never quit on me. And that's the bully.

00:44:28:12 - 00:45:01:02
Jenny Abeyta
That's the bully that's talking. So for for people who are in a position that they need to quit a job or a relationship or a program or whatever, whatever it is, you're not going to change that structure magically by yourself. The best thing you can do is protect yourself. And the way that I quit was me trying to protect myself.

00:45:01:20 - 00:45:12:10
Jenny Abeyta
I I didn't go out, you know, flame throwing the entire building and walking out the doors as much as I wanted to.

00:45:14:16 - 00:45:52:19
Jenny Abeyta
But it was definitely me writing a lot of emails and cushioning a lot of people's egos and saying things like, It's not you, it's me. And I do that for self-protection, and also because I am a liar, compulsive, oddly. But but it's it's self-protection. And you're you're kind of quietly putting your foot down and saying, fuck no, I'm not dealing with this.

00:45:53:04 - 00:45:58:09
Jenny Abeyta
But on the surface you're saying to whom it may concern.

00:45:59:13 - 00:46:28:05
Kat Chudy
See, I was not that polite...I did talk to you a lot. And I think that's something that people might find helpful. So if you are in a situation where you're trying to figure out maybe if the environment you're in is toxic or not, you're not sure about whether you should leave or not, try to first find people that also left that environment.

00:46:28:05 - 00:46:52:17
Kat Chudy
Those are going to be probably your best resource. And if you can't find people that left that specific environment, you could talk to people that have quit other toxic environments because, like you said, a lot of the traits are the same and are reminiscent of, you know, romantic abusive relationships. So the patterns tend to repeat.

00:46:52:17 - 00:46:53:10
Jenny Abeyta
Absolutely.

00:46:54:12 - 00:47:02:14
Kat Chudy
I'm trying to think what else might help. I mean, if you can't leave the situation because I know there's some some situations...

00:47:03:03 - 00:47:04:02
Jenny Abeyta
There’s definitely, yeah...

00:47:05:01 - 00:47:22:00
Kat Chudy
Try to band together with other people at your job or your program because if you are suffering, I can guarantee that there are other people that are suffering as well, and it just might be a part of that culture to keep you from communicating with one another.

00:47:22:20 - 00:47:56:16
Jenny Abeyta
And I think it's the same way that it is in relationships that it is with these programs where there's a certain sense of isolation or the people who are all boiled need to stick together and be boiled. And the really important thing is finding support outside of that network. And you you need other people to rely on. And it even helped me having friends and and just colleagues who are in other departments, even on the university where it's like, is your program like this?

00:47:56:16 - 00:48:10:11
Jenny Abeyta
I mean, maybe a little bit, but is this like this? And just you you need a support system. You need people who can catch you and help you who are not tied into that network. That's abusing you.

00:48:10:20 - 00:48:29:21
Kat Chudy
Also, to remember that a world exists outside of anything that you're talking about, whether it's a job or a school program. It will feel like that is your whole world and you need things to remind you that there is a world outside of that system.

00:48:29:21 - 00:49:01:14
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah, that was definitely hard because you don't see. You just see like, well, I'm quitting and I'm not going to have these letters of rec and I'm not going to have all these people that I'm leaving the program with. But as soon as like I got out those doors and found some people from Arizona that I used to work with and got kind of involved back in some old some old jobs, it was like, Oh my God, why didn't I do this sooner?

00:49:02:06 - 00:49:11:13
Kat Chudy
Yeah, there! ... hindsight is 20/20.

00:49:11:13 - 00:49:32:10
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah, it's it's so much better. Yes, it just be do the kindest thing you can do for yourself and don't stay even if it feels like there is nothing to fall on, you can go and find something to fall on.

00:49:32:21 - 00:49:37:08
Kat Chudy
You know. And there there are plenty of other people out there. You're in good company.

00:49:38:07 - 00:49:42:11
Jenny Abeyta
The.

00:49:42:11 - 00:49:47:12
Kat Chudy
Well, thank you, Jenny. That was an amazing conversation. Thank you for your time today.

00:49:48:04 - 00:49:49:05
Jenny Abeyta
Thank you.

00:49:49:24 - 00:49:55:24
Kat Chudy
Would you like to tell us about any of the stuff you're currently working on? So if people are curious, they can kind of check that out.

00:49:57:14 - 00:50:28:09
Jenny Abeyta
Yeah. So like I said, I'm the resident property designer at Theatreworks and we always have amazing shows going on all the time. I would know. I've always there so we have five lesbians eating a quiche coming up. We've got Hunchback of Notre Dame coming up. And not the not the it's Disney Hunchback of Notre Dame, but it's like the sad Victor Hugo ending.

00:50:29:05 - 00:50:32:11
Jenny Abeyta
So it's got all the amazing music, but it's got that sad ending.

00:50:32:19 - 00:50:35:16
Kat Chudy
That somehow seems better to me. I wish I could go see it...

00:50:35:16 - 00:50:40:23
Jenny Abeyta
Is it's so it's going to know it's going to be really dark. It's going to be really amazing.

00:50:41:16 - 00:50:46:02
Kat Chudy
If you send me links, I can share those with everybody.

00:50:46:02 - 00:50:47:13
Jenny Abeyta
Okeydoke. All right.

00:50:48:00 - 00:51:18:06
Kat Chudy
Thank you. Thank you so much again to Jenny for being willing to have a conversation with me about what is a very sensitive subject still for both of us on a very public platform. I think it's very important to kind of reduce the stigma around things like this by kind of shedding light on some of the hidden processes, even if that does relate very directly to our specific experiences.

00:51:18:24 - 00:51:56:10
Kat Chudy
I think that much sums up my ideas at this point. This is something we might circle back to in different forms. I have a few guests coming up who will probably be touching on ideas of quitting and functioning within systems that may be toxic or nonproductive. So I will be introducing our next guest. I met them through social media on Instagram and ran across her work and was extremely blown away by the care and consideration of the work, not only as artwork in and of itself, but in relation to another human being.

00:51:57:21 - 00:52:25:18
Kat Chudy
So her name is Tori Christianson and she is a textile artist who weaves dynamic forms and textures together to produce tactile art meant to be seen and touched. I'm very excited to have a conversation with her. It will probably be our first time talking, but I'm also excited to see how this connects back to some of the ideas that were in the episode where we talked with Rob Duarte and Meredith Lynn about the shows that they put on for the visually impaired.

00:52:26:08 - 00:52:43:23
Kat Chudy
Thank you for tuning in and I welcome you to join us again for our next episode. Please like and subscribe and I'll talk to you next time.